MRB1000 "Wireless N" question

JoeCHecht · EVDO Junkie Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 326

Well, I say if an N router could enhance "G" mode range, you would see it on the box, you would see it the adverts, and 3G and CradlePoint would be out there with clear and concise statement to this effect, and shouting it from the rooftops.

It is not on the box, in not in the adverts, and I don't hear any 3G or CradlePoint people confirming it.

In fact, all I can find is verifiable statements that say the quite the opposite.

You speak of one Linksys router that has specialized technology that can only use that technology with 2 other Linksys products.

That is not a general case, and until CradelPoint makes a statement to the contrary, does not apply.

The article said six times the range in G mode? The MBR-1000 in "N" mode only give 4 times the range. The math just does not add up.

While I am happy to read the great review of the MBR-1000 range test at the 3GStore, and I am encouraged by the findings, the review did not give enough data to truly evaluate the MBR-1000's range, much less in "G" mode.

For example, did they even say they tested the G mode? Against what? How? I think they said something like the MBR-1000 was better than "other routers", but by how much? What other routers? Did you see any truly comparative figures? All I saw was a half mile, over the hill and far away.

I really would like to find an accurate answer, not to prove who is right or wrong, but to supply accurate information to the users of this forum.

Again, let us hear it from the experts.

If I could find the time, I would like to put together a real test and get some real world info, although I need more routers to test, as just testing one would not be very scientific (might get a hot one).

It might be more cost effective just to email CradlePoint, and have an actual engineer make an official statement on the companies behalf.

If it does as you say, CradlePoint will be happy to verify all that extra G range that you can expect, and the sales team at the 3GStore will be utterly thrilled to quote them on it.

Otherwise, you can expect the same answer that all of the other manufactures have regarding non-propriety N technology: "To benefit form N, You must be running N on both devices".

All I want to see is an authoritative answer, not from Bro, not from Bob, not from Jane, not from some intern at a support desk.

I do not accept "test" results from people who do not know the first thing about testing, and accept the information as general case test results.

I will accept (for example) white papers from manufactures, product ads, valid reference links, and so forth.

If what you say is true, this would be easy to produce, as the whole wireless world would be jumping up and down about it.

In fact, I have spent quite a lot time searching to try to prove you point, and have come up empty handed (and I am very good at finding this sort of information).

I believe most of the folks who are visiting this thread want to see an accurate answer to the question. I know that I do.

Is this the whole reason we have these forums.

So folks, I invite you to show us the beef.

Do you get the extended range benefits from a wireless N router when using a non-propiretory G device?

I say no.

I say that you might get better range on some devices, simply because the devices play well together. I say that some routers have better range than others.

CradlePoint? 3G? Anyone?

Joe

firedude · EVDO Junkie Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 435

Go for it Joe. do the test. Smile

We'll be waiting. I've said my piece and you've said yours and now it is time for everyone to disseminate the info on their own accord. If an "expert" wants to chime in that's ok too. It wouldn't be the first time I've ever been wrong because I am NOT an expert. Wink

Tony

Alex · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:03 am Post subject:

Bigdave · EVDO Addict Joined: 08 Nov 2006 Posts: 1069

Geez, you guys got way too much time on your hands!!

Keep it coming though. This is almost interesting enough to read it all!!

(Note the laughing emoticons!)

firedude · EVDO Junkie Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 435

firedude · EVDO Junkie Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 435

If anyone gets bored with Joe and I's technical debates and observations I have another technical issue to be solved and you all can ponder it in the meantime if you thin k internet and evdo is complicated in anyway.....

"Ever wonder what a chair would look like if your knees bent the other way"?
Laughing

JoeCHecht · EVDO Junkie Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 326

Alex · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject:

your objectives were not my objectives. you are testing useful connection speed over distance.

i was comparing "raw" wifi range of 3G routers that use G radio vs N radio.

while your testing makes more sense... i'm just telling you that my objective was entirely different.

why did i do mine the way i did? because the bottleneck is always going to be EVDO speeds, and i believed that others who have bought previous 3G routers with a G radio would want to know how the MBR1000 compared, from a range point of view alone.

now that you've made your comparison of useful speeds at G vs N on the MBR1000, why not also take a 'standard' (as in unmodified) linksys 3G router or KR1 or whatever you might have, and see what distance you get, with any decent speeds.

my guess is, the comparison i made holds up: the MBR1000 is far and away the king of "range alone" or "useful speed over range", compared to 3G routers that use only a G radio.

(i've read the above three times, and i think it makes the point i want to. but who knows.)

firedude · EVDO Junkie Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 435

firedude · EVDO Junkie Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 435

firedude · EVDO Junkie Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 435

Yeah yeah I was gonna be done with this but found some very interesting reading direct from Cisco.com........ I personally won't argue with the experts but here is part of what they have to say and I actually understand it lol. NOT to debate anything, I just found it very interesting>>>>>

Advantages of 802.11n
The innovative techniques and technologies employed in 802.11n result in a wireless LAN that offers several important advantages over previous wireless solutions. These advantages include:

• Greater reliability: MIMO allows 802.11n networks to provide a more robust wireless service that supports more concurrent connections. With the ability to communicate over multiple antennas and eliminate dead spots, 802.11n networks can maintain optimal performance at greater distances (even with conventional 802.11a/b/g clients) and provide an improved user experience for high-bandwidth voice and video applications. MIMO improves the signal transmit and receive characteristics of the wireless transmission to reduce the number of packet retries resulting in a more reliable and consistent level of throughput.

• Greater throughput: The combination of MIMO, channel bonding, and packet aggregation allow 802.11n networks (employing both 802.11n clients and access points) to achieve data rates as high as 300 Mbps per radio, fully five times greater than the maximum available with 802.11a/g. However, 802.11n access points also enhance the performance of wireless clients built under previous standards. An 802.11a/b/g client communicating with an 802.11n access point will usually deliver better throughput than if it were communicating with an 802.11a/b/g wireless access point at the same range, simply as a result of MIMO technology.

• Greater coverage predictability: Enterprises are designing wireless networks for performance and MIMO provides greater throughput resulting in more predictable coverage throughout the facility. The coverage improvements extend to 802.11a/b/g clients as well as 802.11n clients. At any given location, a client connecting to an 802.11n access point with MIMO will receive greater throughput than it would otherwise receive from a traditional 802.11a/b/g access point. As a result, 802.11n networks can support more clients using high-bandwidth applications than previous wireless solutions.

JoeCHecht · EVDO Junkie Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 326

[quote="firedude"]Yeah yeah I was gonna be done with this but found some very interesting reading direct from Cisco.com........ I personally won't argue with the experts but here is part of what they have to say and I actually understand it lol. NOT to debate anything, I just found it very interesting>>>>>

Can we have the URL from your last post to verify its authenticity?

Yes, it is well known that N routers should not slow down in a mixed enviroment thus providing better network performance. Also, it is known that the N mode router can receive the signal better, so that there is at least some improvement in transmissions from the legacy device to the router, leading to some possible performance increase.

Knowing that you have to read a vendors statements very carefully for wording (and you really have to read internet snippets that people post very very carefully), I see broad wording.. For example:

"The coverage improvements extend to 802.11a/b/g clients as well as 802.11n clients."

What does that really mean? All coverage improvements? The same coverage improvements, Some coverage improvements?

Again, if it really did provide the same exact coverage improvements, I think they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

We will see. I fired off an email to CradlePoint, asking for an answer to the question that was suitable for publication. The question was direct, and allowed for no sidestepping.

"Will wireless G devices get the same 4X range enhancement benefit as N devices when used with the MBR-1000 in mixed g/n mode?"

Also, I am glad your not done, since you may something to offer:

I have a question for you, Bro, and anyone else that may have an answer:

I might could see how a N router might be able to receive a signal from a legacy G device, at a greater range, utilizing N technology.

So, how is a legacy G device able to take advantage of this same N technology if it does not have it?

The N router is not broadcasting in G mode with any more power. The legacy device does not support multiple channels, nor additional antennas, nor does it have any of the hardware needed to support any of the technology that provides the additional range that N provides.

So how can this legacy G device magically start receiving at extended 4x to 10x distances?

How is this be possible?

42?

Joe

firedude · EVDO Junkie Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 435

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/wireless/ps5678/ps6973/ps8382/prod_brochure0900aecd806b8a92_ns767_Networking_Solutions_Brochure.html

Ya know Joe the link is above since you doubted its authenticity anyway. No I did not inject, change or otherwise tamper with the info I posted.

I will concede. You are right and I am wrong. I thought their comments were very clear. Evidentally I misread everything. My apologies to all for the misinformation on the subject.

Folks I guess we might as well face facts. I am wrong. The N and mixed mode of the Cradle Point MBR 1000 has no affect on range or performance with a G device so if you want any significant affect at all from the MBR 1000 in the N range you must buy an N device for the other end or it's useless. Sorry for all the misinformation. It does perform exceptionally well in the B&G modes.

This is my final post to this thread. G'nite.

JoeCHecht · EVDO Junkie Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 326

JoeCHecht · EVDO Junkie Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 326