Verizon and Wilson amplifiers

cb360t · EVDO Newbie Joined: 23 Sep 2008 Posts: 4

Recently a local Verison representative sent me this:

[i]We are a PCS or 1900 MHz network We own multiple bands within that frequency. Usually an amp and an antenna only do one bandwidth cellular or PCS not both. Wilson products are not allowed on our network. You will want to be very careful using this product even now. They actually rebroadcast the signal pulled in. Rebroadcasting a signal requires written consent from your carrier. Not to scare you or anything but without written consent you are violating some laws and could be prosecuted. The FCC is working out laws to prevent companies selling rebroadcasting equipment to consumers but you may want to keep that hushed because you could get into a lot of trouble. The only legal way of boosting a signal is a repeater. Verizon has a repeater referral program. [/i]

A Wilson Technical Rep told me this:

[i]All Wilson equipment is type approved by the FCC before we start selling it. Your amplifier is a direct connect and doesn’t broadcast signal anyway. Also, our wireless amplifier systems (either for vehicles or buildings) are not intended to rebroadcast signal outside a building or vehicle and violate no FCC regulations if used according to instructions. No approval by your carrier is required. Our company has a letter written by an attorney who specializes in FCC law, concerning this, if you should need it.

We have vehicle amplifiers, such as the 811201, that work on all frequencies, other than iden (Nextel), and also a home amplifier (The SOHO), that are dual-band. Most building amplifiers are single frequency but can be installed together for multi-frequency coverage if needed.[/i]

Who should I believe?

Alex · Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:57 am Post subject:

The sale of Wilson Electronics amplifiers and repeaters is itself, not against the law.

There are ways that they could be used that would result in the operator/installer breaking a law.

When you get your Wilson amp/repeater, be sure to follow instructions closely, and you won't break any laws.

The FCC is an all-powerful government agency that would NEVER allow so many companies to sell a product that was "illegal for sale in USA".
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dario · Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: Agree with Alex

The sale of of amplifiers and repeaters itself, is not against the law. Verizon Wireless National Accounts even sells an amplifier and repeater for home and business use they start off at $3K

widgetman101 · EVDO Junkie Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Posts: 211

The problem with Wilson amps are there gain is controlled by the cell tower. When I had a Verizon tech at my home running diagnostics I asked him about them and he said I needed to notify them before installing the amp.

I ended up going with a Inteligain amplifier from another supplier that's software driven not hardware driven to communicate with the tower. Just plug in and go and I'm pleased with my end result.

I actually questioned him why I would have to contact them if I bought a Wilson and he said if setup incorrectly it can render the tower useless to anyone. So potentially knocking out everyone's service wouldn't be a good thing.

Alex · Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:53 am Post subject:

cb360t · EVDO Newbie Joined: 23 Sep 2008 Posts: 4

[quote="widgetman101"]The problem with Wilson amps are there gain is controlled by the cell tower. When I had a Verizon tech at my home running diagnostics I asked him about them and he said I needed to notify them before installing the amp.

I ended up going with a Inteligain amplifier from another supplier that's software driven not hardware driven to communicate with the tower. Just plug in and go and I'm pleased with my end result.

I actually questioned him why I would have to contact them if I bought a Wilson and he said if setup incorrectly it can render the tower useless to anyone. So potentially knocking out everyone's service wouldn't be a good thing.[/quote]

The Wilson Direct Connection Cellular/PCS GSM/TDMA Dual-Band 824-894MHz / 1850-1990MHz Amplifier (812201) does NOT have gain control.

Direct Connection Cellular/PCS Dual-Band 824-894MHz / 1850-1990MHz Amplifier (811201) CDMA DOES have gain control.

SIGNALBOOST™ Mobile and Home/Office Cellular/PCS Amplifier (811210)
ALSO HAS gain control. It works on all generations of CDMA, TDMA and GSM.

Gain control is a GOOD thing as far as a CDMA (Verizon) tower is concerned; it is not a bad thing.

How can a Wilson amplifier be "setup incorrectly"? There is nothing to setup. You plug an antenna into one side and plug the other side into your modem. It either works or it doesn't.

widgetman101 · EVDO Junkie Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Posts: 211

Capt.Dan · Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject:

If this is there service tech...I am not looking forward to seeing what happens to Alltel when they DO merge!!!!! That guy needs a rubber suit!!

cb360t · EVDO Newbie Joined: 23 Sep 2008 Posts: 4

I thought that you may be interested in the following message from my local Verison representative:

[quote]I am sorry that it took me so long to get back to you but I wanted to speak with someone directly in network and my contact was on vacation. Here was there response I recieved when verifing what I was telling you was correct.

I have confirmation from VZW HQ that we do not allow Wilson repeaters on our VZW network. Their simple response to me:

"VZW HQ concurs; No Wilson products are authorized to work on our network/frequencies. Use would also be a violation of FCC regulations."

Sorry I couldn't get a VZW web link but I also understand that we can't have a web page for every rule or possibility. But it should be simple - this customer was nice enough to ask and our answer is a definite:NO Wilson products are allowed to be used on our network. And Wilson is entirely wrong in their comments that "No approval is necessary". From a recent FCC fine imposed on a competitor to Wilson that tried to argue the same line that Wilson gave this customer about "broadcast". Here is the FCC response (and I bolded the key phrase):

While Digital Antenna maintains that the wireless repeaters are not transmitters, the Enforcement Bureau’s February 4, 2008 Letter of Inquiry makes clear that "cellular and PCS boosters and repeaters are transmitters and may only be used by licensed cellular/PCS providers or by end user customers with the express authorization of the licensed provider."

You may want to tell him that there is current rulemaking going on at the FCC to hopefully prevent these companies from selling these products. That will certainly make all of this much easier.[/quote]
.

n6gn · Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:10 am Post subject:

This is becoming interesting. I'm not surprised that amplifiers might be ruled transmitters and their use placed under control of the spectrum holder or network operator. I've mentioned before that I knew of carriers seeking to prohibit other vendors' amplifiers on their systems.

Going back up on this thread, it *would* be possible for an errant amplifier to wreak havoc and even effectively take down most of a cell site. If an amplifier close to the site ended up oscillating and generating full power in the middle of the RF channel, it could overwhelm users of the system. The oscillation would look like interference/noise to the system and might conceivably reduce the Ec/Io of all other users below the point of usefulness. That would effectively shut down that RF channel for that segment of the site.

It will be interesting to see if the carriers continue to sell (It's been reported on this forum that Verizon presently does I think) their own amplifiers for use on their networks. Although this might look like a monopoly, it might be argued that the carrier needs to do this to protect it's network.

n6gn

Alex · Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:33 am Post subject:

n6gn, clarify a point for me please.

none of these restrictions or claims apply to a direct-connect amp, right?

any FCC issue is likely to only concern the use of of wireless 'repeaters'?
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n6gn · Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:09 am Post subject:

falsedragon · EVDO User Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 45

wavrider · EVDO Fledgling Joined: 14 Jun 2008 Posts: 19

False Dragon

Had to smile at your reference to CB or 11 meter amplifiers.
Some of the dirtiest bleeding class "C" amps I have ever been inside the case of.

The amplifiers in this discussion should, from a manufacturers point be tested and passed FCC emissions before ever being sold to the public.

Of course there is always the installation problems of the end user doing a self install and not using proper grounding or shielding procedures.

From what I can understand, (and I am no expert or even remotely knowledgeable of the EVDO or CDMA,) there is no set standard of type of power control between different providers. Where as Sprint may control there system different that Verizon does.

So if an amp works like an amp is designed to do, it will amplify whatever signal is injected into the input. So an amp designed to amplify said freq should work on any network that is designed to work with that freq.

The service providers are only going to see more of this type of problems in the future as EVDO and WISP become more popular in remote areas where DSL or cable is not available.

Subscribers are going to buy amps, yagi's and grid antennas to improve their current setup and connections.

It is inevitable that the FCC requirements of gain on the EVDO freq are going to be ignored, as in almost any FCC regulated freq spectrum, HAM bands not excluded

Alex · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject:

As a high-volume distributor of Wilson Electronics amps and repeaters, 3Gstore has an obvious interest in how this discussion plays out.

We've contacted the Director of Sales at Wilson Electronics and while I cannot simply paste the email discussion we've had, I have been given permission to state that: