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widgetman101
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 210
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 Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Alex I believe you wrote this to me earlier in the thread.
| Alex wrote: | | widgetman101 wrote: | | I actually questioned him... |
him who? if it was the vendor of other amp... i question the source.
if it were verizon... lets think about this. wilson sells an amp that can shut down a tower? really? |
Wilson is your direct vendor so how much do you believe the source considering they sell volume to you?
It seems you should be contacting the FCC directly rather than relying on what the vendor says. I doubt they would want to risk losing a re seller. |
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Alex
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 3074
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| widgetman101 wrote: | Wilson is your direct vendor so how much do you believe the source considering they sell volume to you?
It seems you should be contacting the FCC directly rather than relying on what the vendor says. I doubt they would want to risk losing a re seller. |
I see your point of view, but try to see ours as well.
Wilson stands to lose a LOT of money if we decide to stop selling their products, and the onus is on Wilson to prove they deserve our continued business.
Not only would we not know where to begin with discussions at the FCC, we don't have the time or resources to deal with a big gov't agency and Wilson does.
The liability here is not with 3Gstore. Its with Wilson. We ask if their products are safe to sell. We shouldn't have to, but we do. If they are not fully representing the truth to us, the potential for not just loss of business but a class action lawsuit by dealers like us... is ever present.
So yeah. We're putting the ball in Wilson's court and watching them dribble this one out.
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widgetman101
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 210
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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I guess that wouldn't have to be the one dealing with the FCC since you sub wholesale Wilson's products and don't actually manufacture your own amps.
So your protected and if Wilson is inaccurate here with there response it will end up being there responsibility. |
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n6gn
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Alex wrote: |
| Quote: | | ...the bottom line is that amplifiers and repeaters that are FCC type accepted are NOT illegal. They meet and exceed ALL FCC requirements |
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I can appreciate 3GStore's concern with this question. I agree that it will be interesting to see how it plays out and if things change.
While an amplifier, per se, may not be illegal, it can certainly be used on a carrier's system in a manner which causes degradation of that network. Since a carrier may have paid a great deal of money for that spectrum and that network, it is possible and even likely that they may be legally able to dictate what equipment may be used and in what manner. Thus, may they not forbid, say, all user-installed hardware or user-configured hardware or make other similar restrictions? I wonder what exasctly the carriers "bought" when they paid all those billions for spectrum...
I haven't read carefully what I signed up for when I entered contract on my cell phone but I bet the carrier has reserved some rights and conditions.
n6gn |
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falsedragon
EVDO User
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ...the bottom line is that amplifiers and repeaters that are FCC type accepted are NOT illegal. They meet and exceed ALL FCC requirements |
I have no doubt that the amplifiers meet minimum FCC requirements. With that said, It doest not give rights to broadcast, or re-broadcast on those licensed frequencies. If I go out and buy a new Harris microwave, i understand that it complies with FCC regulations. That doesn't give me the right to turn it up on a frequency that I have no rights to. At this point, it is not the vendor or manufacturer that is in violation. It’s the person who turned it up. I would guess the same would be the case with non approved amps or BDA's. Go to a hospital or airport and ask them how much of a pain it was to get their in building BDA.
Cells are fine tuned, and believe me, a lot of time goes into drive testing, to best utilize a "normal customer experience". There are times when a Cell will be attenuated so not to push RF where it does not belong. For example; if Carrier A does not have a license 10 miles south of Cell, they will scale that sector back, so people don't use it where the license might be owned by another carrier. Add a BDA, and now you are operating in the area that Carrier A is not suppose to be in. At this point, you are more then likely to be causing noise on another carriers system, and you are in violation.
Personally, I could care less if amps are sold. Chasing noise is fun (and noise can be a perfectly normal signal, which the system is not setup for). |
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Capt.Dan
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 202
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I can't still see how a amp to receive signals would screw up there towers are Wilson amps trans and receive?? If Joe blow has a hard time getting signal and gets a amp to help receive those signals what would be the harm?? Whats next Barring Routers as they are transmitter/receiver combo units?? |
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n6gn
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Capt.Dan wrote: | | I can't still see how a amp to receive signals would screw up there towers are Wilson amps trans and receive?? |
Most cell amplifiers are bi-directional - they have a low noise, low power preamp for the downlink but a power amplifier for further amplifying the handset or data card on the uplink. If that amplifier were to oscillate at full power, it might saturate the CDMA channel and impair or kill service for all other users.
Normally CDMA systems operate with multiple forms of power control designed to produce equal power in the base's receiver from all users. If a particular user's system is altered to change that things can go bad for others and, in some situations, even for that user him/herself.
n6gn |
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digitalincome
EVDO Newbie
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Great post. I happened across it when looking for more information about amplifier comparisons. Similarly I spoke with my carrier, Alltel today about the same issue as I live in a rural area and have terrible signal strength.
Anyway I asked if the Alltel Verizon merger would give its users more options and if they had plans to update what must be antiquated towers as I am in a 1-X area with a Rev A edvo capable phone, the razr 2 v9m with all the bells and multimedia whistles - but it’s useless with their current signal. Anyway I mentioned to him that I have plans to buy a Wilson Amplifier and a high gain yagi antenna and asked the locations of all the towers near me because the antennas are directional – he then told me he recommended a * amplifier (which they conveniently sell at Alltel) and said that they have less interference.
My opinion is that I wouldn’t be in the position to have to buy ANY equipment if they could deliver the promised usable signal strength , and their concern is the use of bandwidth when any equipment communicates to the tower – not what’s best for the customer. Having done some comparisons the * boats a patent that regulates communication with the tower with it software – but for my situation and apples to apple comparisons the Wilson amps are a better solution because an amp can only amplify the existing signal not create one and Wilson has the capability to detect much lower signals.
I canceled my Nextel’s when I moved here because their iden networks was useless, then tried sprint and it was hit and miss, called Verizon and was told I’m in a fringe area that could not guarantee signal for voice or that a data card would work here, and finally went with Alltel – with disappointing results – so in short – although there are difference in FCC regs with mobile vs fixed antennas from my understanding – ALL the products that Wilson sells are approved before they set them to market – and the carriers are simply attempting to put a spin on what would better serve their interests.
Although I'm still doing the research before plunking down the cash - I recommend getting the system that delivers the most gain and reliability and screw versions saber rattling – as I will be getting one some and be using the Verizon tower which Alltel shares near me, and if they have a problem they will at least now be able to reach me by calling the formerly useless cell phone. OK – done ranting – take care. |
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ResIpsa
EVDO Newbie
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Best Amplifier for use with Verizon? |
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| We have a MBR1000 with a Wilson Shorty antenna connected to our Verizon USB727 in our RV. This setup has worked very well, BUT, we are considering the addition of an amplifier. Given the amount of conversation regarding the legality of such a move, can anyone provide input as to the best amplifier to select? We were gravitating towards the EVDO Direct Connect Amplifier (3 Watt) ~~ |
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Alex
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 3074
Location: Dallas, TX
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RadioEquip4Sale
EVDO Newbie
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Canada Eh!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| falsedragon wrote: | | Quote: | | ...the bottom line is that amplifiers and repeaters that are FCC type accepted are NOT illegal. They meet and exceed ALL FCC requirements |
I have no doubt that the amplifiers meet minimum FCC requirements. With that said, It doest not give rights to broadcast, or re-broadcast on those licensed frequencies. If I go out and buy a new Harris microwave, i understand that it complies with FCC regulations. That doesn't give me the right to turn it up on a frequency that I have no rights to. At this point, it is not the vendor or manufacturer that is in violation. It’s the person who turned it up. I would guess the same would be the case with non approved amps or BDA's. Go to a hospital or airport and ask them how much of a pain it was to get their in building BDA.
Cells are fine tuned, and believe me, a lot of time goes into drive testing, to best utilize a "normal customer experience". There are times when a Cell will be attenuated so not to push RF where it does not belong. For example; if Carrier A does not have a license 10 miles south of Cell, they will scale that sector back, so people don't use it where the license might be owned by another carrier. Add a BDA, and now you are operating in the area that Carrier A is not suppose to be in. At this point, you are more then likely to be causing noise on another carriers system, and you are in violation.
Personally, I could care less if amps are sold. Chasing noise is fun (and noise can be a perfectly normal signal, which the system is not setup for). |
falsedragon you are completely correct, the carrier FCC license not only requires you to protect the airwaves outside your license (you causing interference to other carriers) but also allows you to restrict devices within your licensed spectrum to ensure that service is not negatively impacted.
I've had a couple long chats with the people from Wilson at trade shows and they are quick to point out thier equipment is FCC approved (which it is) but that doesn't mean the carrier has approved the equipment.
Bottom line is if the carrier tells you they don't approve or allow amp model X,Y, or Z then regardless of whether the box is FCC approved it shouldn't be used on thier system, they do legally have the right to request this. |
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n6gn
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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It would seem to me that we have come to a pretty strong consensus that the carrier/operator is fully within its rights to forbid usage of a BDA and also that an amplifier can create problems. An amplifier that is generating significant power in spectrum or in a geography outside carrier's ownership may be further regulated by a different carrier and the FCC.
Probably one the most benign usages of a BDA is to extend the characteristics of a handset or data card to another location. An example might be an external antenna and BDA located at a good-signal spot a few hundred feet from a residence where there was no coverage. If the amplifier gain just made up for the cable loss, the "good antenna" would be available to the handset just as though the user were at the actual location. If the BDA were perfect (it never is) it might be very difficult or impossible to tell that it was even being used in the system. However, even this application would be under control of the carrier(s) and FCC and could be forbidden.
An even more benign amplifier usage would be provided by a downlink-only amplifier to provide the above improvements in only one direction without changing the transmit capabilities of the user device. This might be the least intrusive usage of all but since even this one changes the way the system works, I am of the opinion that the carrier should be legally able to restrict it - though it probably wouldn't.
n6gn |
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ResIpsa
EVDO Newbie
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| How exactly would a user be informend of a violation ~~ is the use of particular amplifiers readily identifiable by provider system personnel through their "signiture(s)", or is it just the fact that there is amplification in use by a particular user which is identifiable? Or none of the above :>) |
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n6gn
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| ResIpsa wrote: | | How exactly would a user be informed of a violation |
Most likely 'none of the above'. In most cases, it is probably (hopefully) difficult to even tell that an amplifier is in use. If it is discernible, then it says that use of the amplifier is mucking up the system. If an amplifier actually operates at a power level significantly different from the unamplified device, then its use has disturbed. things. This is one of the fallacies of 'x watt vs. y watt' amplifier selection. The system power control should make them all work the same in practice. Any improvement on the receive side (downlink) should be invisible to the carrier as long as the gains in each direction are similar.
I suspect it is hard for a carrier/operator to tell a particular user has an amplifier - unless something goes wrong.
n6gn |
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