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firedude
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 435
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 Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: |
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G, B,or N ya gotta love this thing!!!! The only bad part is the marks the flight helmet leaves on your face if you forget to take it off before bed LOL! 
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Jim_in_VA
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 544
Location: On the Chesapeake Bay, Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Correct, you get the full potential using a N device with a N router. But you also get an increase in range with a G device, just not the speed. You can easily observe this with your own gear or with a program like Netstumbler or Configfree. Simply use a G laptop with a N router and see how far you can go with it in comparison. Real-world tests confirmed it for me
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uvarules
EVDO User
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Manakin-Sabot, Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| JoeCHecht wrote: | | Jim_in_VA wrote: | | You won't get the speeds without a N compatible device but you will get the range. My N router connected to a CTR350 easily doubled the range. Even with a N compatible device, and using EVDO, you won't get the full potential speed wise. But distance? Yes. |
If this is true, it sure would be great, however, every technical paper I have read states that this is absolutely not the case. To get the benefit of either the speed or range that "N" offers, you must be running a N device.
I would sure entertain the reading of additional papers if you could site an authoritive source, and as always, I will happily stand corrected if I am found to be inaccurate.
Joe |
First of all, let me say hello to Jim from Va. I recognize you from our former Wildblue days. I think we're both much happier now!!
I can say categorically that there is no benefit from an "N" device, unless both the access point and client adapter are "N" devices. "G" devices do not connect to "N" devices if that "N" device is only set to that spec ("N").
I still find "N" to be problematic and it has a tendency to be more sensitive to interior building obstacles than "G". If installed in a "clean" environment, "N" performs as advertised, but it still has a ways to go in meeting the stability that "G" offers.
Final standard is expected to be complete by November of 2008.
I find that personally, I can get caught up in the hype, and of course advertised speed is sexy. But in the scheme of things, throughgput is misunderstood ( I learned that from Wildblue), and latency is incredibly important. I'm equally concerned that I have minimal packet loss when I connect to my access point from across the house. A good test is to ping your wireless router ( ex.: 192.168.1.1) from the furthest point away in your house and check the latency.
Go to Command Prompt and type: ping 192.168.1.1 -n 10
(your router may have a different address)
That will give you 10 results and if you have any timeouts or high "ms" results, it's worth taking a look at your setup. Mine typically are at 1ms on average.
Thanks to 3G for the forum, it's a great place and has saved me money and time! |
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Jim_in_VA
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 544
Location: On the Chesapeake Bay, Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Hi there UVA, indeed I am sure we are both happier than our previous offering 
Regarding the N topic. I have stated before that my N router connected with the CTR350 or connected directly to the host via ICS and in b/g/n mix mode easily outperformed by a wide margin the range of the Cradlepoint. Now either the signal is improved by the N router or the G router has dismal performance in this area. Speeds, of course, did not improve. A measurement of the signal dBm via Netstumble also clearly indicated the advantage of the N with both routers being in the same location. So it either speaks well of the transmission strength of the N protocol in a mixed enviroment or the less than stellar strength of the G Cradlepoint. The range was undeniable.
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firedude
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
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I kind of have to agree with Jim on this as I'm finding the same results as I begin to meander my way through testing the MBR1000 and using my old pumped up G router as well in the tests. Again while speeds are not increased there is a DEFINITE increase in range hands down as well as a significant change in the dBm readings. I also agree you will not get the full benefits of the "N" technology without "N" devices at each end. Even the "N" technology hasn't been fully defined yet or a benchmark set. Unless the FCC has let up on their requirements on "stock" routers and the transmit power allowed without 3rd party firmware to hack the transmit power settings there is something that has improved immensely on my end. I'll call it the MBR1000 for now. 
As Jim said and put it very well.."So it either speaks well of the transmission strength of the N protocol in a mixed enviroment or the less than stellar strength of the G Cradlepoint".
Tony |
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firedude
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Well I'm happy to report the SGNL dance went well this morning. In fact it wasn't much of a dance lol. Got 4 bars straight our of the barrel.
I have to say it's not as very impressive way to obtain signal strength though. Sure you can move around the house checking signal strength, but remember to take your power supply with you and plug it in or you'll look like Ronny Milsap trying to play basketball with the Harlem Globetrotters!
I would hope at some point in time Cradle Point would come up with an update and have signal strength readings somewhere in the admin section. Still, this small annoyance does not take away from a great product!
On edit... this is why Cradle Point should come up with a bit more information/documentation on the operation of the router on a CD or in a downloadable PDF. I would have never know how to or what the function was of the SGNL button was as it it not on the quick start sheet nor in the help section that I could find within the admin section of the router. Thanks to 3G for letting us know on their tip sheet!
Tony |
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firedude
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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You know the folks over at Cradle Point are very responsive and helpful as I found out. For you MBR1000 owners if you have a suggestion/wish list item for the 1000 send it to Suggestions@cradlepoint.com
Please do NOT send tech support questions here. Use the proper/normal method for such. These guy are intending to enhance the 1000 and was told to keep an eye on the website for any new info.
My suggestions were...
*Either a CD included with unit or a downloadable PDF with admin help files.
*A signal strength indicator within the admin section somewhere to maybe include signal strength/quality with maybe bars and -dBm readings or?
some folks have mentioned the need for removable antennas and a few other things so let let them hear from us! They have already quickly responded to our requests for firmware update notes! Thanks Cradle Point and 3G!
The more interests we show and the more suggestion/requests we send the more chances we have of improving an already great product. Please if you have any input send it to the above email even if it's duplicated. it will just show more enthusiasm. These folks at Cradle Point want to work for us ass customers, but they need feedback too. Oh and as I've stated they are as happy with 3G as I am.
Tony |
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JoeCHecht
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim_in_VA wrote: | Hi there UVA, indeed I am sure we are both happier than our previous offering
Regarding the N topic. I have stated before that my N router connected with the CTR350 or connected directly to the host via ICS and in b/g/n mix mode easily outperformed by a wide margin the range of the Cradlepoint. Now either the signal is improved by the N router or the G router has dismal performance in this area. Speeds, of course, did not improve. A measurement of the signal dBm via Netstumble also clearly indicated the advantage of the N with both routers being in the same location. So it either speaks well of the transmission strength of the N protocol in a mixed enviroment or the less than stellar strength of the G Cradlepoint. The range was undeniable. |
You cannot make a good comparison between two different routers, and two different modes, and assume the difference was the mode. There are far too many factors at work (antenna size, gain, direction, output, sensitivity, interference, orientation of the devices, etc).
I have tested the signal of my CTR-350 at different angles (after opening one and looking at the antenna orientation inside the unit) and even a few degrees seems to make difference... or perhaps is it is the 5 wireless networks at the end of the block that made the difference? Dont know.
I love this example:
My mother in law claims she gets better than 10% better gas mileage when she buys premium gas, based on driving from a known point A to a known point B that she measured once as 301 freeway miles on the odometer. Our family has driven this same route exact for 42 years.
Among many things she did not factor in is the fact that that if you hug the inside lane on those very long curves going down the interstate on this route, it shaves 22 miles off the trip (thus one of the reasons why race car drivers hug the inside of the track on curves is that the distance is shorter). (I sometimes successfully use this same technique on long trips).
We wont even try to address the other factors at play, such as wind speed and direction, tire pressure, temperature during fillups, and during the run, humidity, differences in road surface between the lanes driven on, speed, acceleration, and so forth - I could go on for a very long time. The point is, even armed with a few good reliable tools for testing, it is almost impossible for the average "joe" to detect a real difference gas mileage outside of a lab. Buying premium gas makes no real difference unless your engine is knocking, and neither does new spark plugs so long as the old ones where sparking correctly.
What does seem to work is real world experience - ie: Whatever works best...
[Ramble On]
Joe |
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firedude
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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If you choose the WEP security option the device will ONLY operate in Legacy Wireless mode (802.11B/G). This means you will NOT get 11N performance due to the fact that WEP is not supported by Draft 11N specification.
Just an FYI |
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JoeCHecht
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| firedude wrote: | If you choose the WEP security option the device will ONLY operate in Legacy Wireless mode (802.11B/G). This means you will NOT get 11N performance due to the fact that WEP is not supported by Draft 11N specification.
Just an FYI |
Good! WEP akin to using a piece of scotch tape to hold the door closed durring a hurricane
On the other hand, do any of the manufactures actually follow the N "draft" spec very closely?
I am unsure if this is fact, but today, I read somewhere that you can gain performance by using WPA2 when using N mode. If true, this is very welcome, as WPA can really slow ya down.
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firedude
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| JoeCHecht wrote: | Good! WEP akin to using a piece of scotch tape to hold the door closed durring a hurricane
On the other hand, do any of the manufactures actually follow the N "draft" spec very closely?
I am unsure if this is fact, but today, I read somewhere that you can gain performance by using WPA2 when using N mode. If true, this is very welcome, as WPA can really slow ya down.Joe |
Actually this is my next test lol. I initially started in WEP. Worked great, but as you say it's like using scotch tape where sutures was needed. I have now switched to WPA (AES) with no determinable difference in speed or performance! Now next I''m going to WPA2 (AES) however I'm having a bit of a problem with the laptop and WPA2. In the Broadcom Utility in configuring the connection WPA2 is not there in the drop down list so now I gotta figure that one out, but as far as WAP...no slow down. whew!
Tony |
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Capt Ron
EVDO Heavy User
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 148
Location: Central Florida Connected Using Razr & CTR350
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| JoeCHecht wrote: |
I am unsure if this is fact, but today, I read somewhere that you can gain performance by using WPA2 when using N mode. If true, this is very welcome, as WPA can really slow ya down.
Joe |
I am using WPA and I wonder if it is slowing me down. It seems like it is slower through the router, rather than plugged into the laptop.
Do you know how much it will slow down? I had tried WPA2 and it seemed about the same speed or slower. |
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firedude
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ron,
As in my other post ( http://www.evdoforums.com/thread8478.html ) , I'm doing a lot of testing with the MBR1000. I am currently running in the WPA mode with no difference in performance from the WEP mode. I have not experienced any noticeable difference including a reduction in speed or slowness of the router??
Tony |
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JoeCHecht
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Capt Ron wrote: | | JoeCHecht wrote: |
I am unsure if this is fact, but today, I read somewhere that you can gain performance by using WPA2 when using N mode. If true, this is very welcome, as WPA can really slow ya down.
Joe |
I am using WPA and I wonder if it is slowing me down. It seems like it is slower through the router, rather than plugged into the laptop.
Do you know how much it will slow down? I had tried WPA2 and it seemed about the same speed or slower. |
I have not a clue. I do believe WPA known to be slower than WEP, but by how much, I do not know.
I wonder how easy it is to determine true the true though put. I seem to recall Wireless G Turbo modes using compression to achieve those fantastic benchmarks, and they used some highly compressable ascii text files to test with, since sending pre-compressed binary data (video data for example) could actually take longer (since compressing an already compressed file often results in a large file, or burning a lot of cpu cycles for nothing).
All I can say is try it out, between two local machines that are close to the router, using the same data, and let us know
Joe |
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firedude
EVDO Junkie
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| My neighbor and I are both in the WPA mode on my 1000 and there is no difference in anything, speed or otherwise. We had been in WEP and swithed to check a couple hours ago and all is well. No slowdown. |
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