CradlePoint Firmware Updates and the Law

JoeCHecht · EVDO Junkie Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 342

I have sent CradlePoint emails concerning the following issue with no results, and I know there are users here in the forums that feel the same way.

I am getting really tired of CradlePoint putting out firmware updates, and not disclosing what has changed in the update.

CradlePoint customers blindly run the updates, and sometimes, the updates end up in disaster, causing the router to become non-functional.

It appears that sometimes, these updates are only provided to support additional devices that may not have a benefit to the customer that is upgrading, leading to waisted time, effort, productivity, and loss of business.

Other times, I suspect that firmware updates address bugs, meaning that they address product defects, only known to CradlePoint.

Finally, I suspect that other times, the firmware updates address security issues known only to CradlePoint, meaning that they address not only a product defect, they address an issue that could put their customer at risk of actual harm, known only to CradlePoint.

I do know that in many states, perhaps at the federal level, and probably in many countries, there are laws that address companies that knowing put out products containing defects.

I suspect that there are laws somewhere that would address the liability issue of a company that puts out products known to expose a user to harm (such as a security issue), without disclosure.

As customers, all we want is a basic firmware version change log, and the following disclosures, for the purpose of:

1) Making an informed decision if the potential benefit of installing a firmware update outweighs the risk of installing the latest firmware update and having our routers become inoperatable, leading to lost time, productivity, and loss of business.

2) Knowing the product's defects, so that we can avoid lost time, productivity, and loss of business.

3) Know about security issues that can expose users to harm.

This is so easy to remedy. All CradlePoint has to do is be upfront with thier customers, and make simple disclosures, in the form of a changelog, security notice, or FAQ, in a manner similar to other manufacturers of like products.

By not disclosing this information, it appears that CradlePoint is more concerned about themselves than they are about the customers that use CradlePoint products.

It is time for change. CradlePoint markets these products for use in in areas of business and governmental emergency response, where blind faith is just not enough.

I encourage anyone who agrees to write to CradlePoint and let it be known that they need to come clean and make the disclosures for the safety and security of their customers, and the public that might depend on their products to work in a safe and secure fashion.

I can also say that I write this because I care about CradlePoint, and I would like to see the company stay in business, and not get taken down by litigators who might launch a expensive class action lawsuit.

Folks, let your voice be heard!

Joe

firedude · EVDO Junkie Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 435

I find many times a simple phone call will suffice if email fails. I'm sure you'd find someone at Cradle Point to talk to. As well I'd contact the folks at the 3G Store with the concerns and see where they are on it, but as I've said I've usually been able to resolve issues via the phone when emails don't work. If nothing else ask what a specific firmware update is for and I'm sure someone there can tell you and then suggest the firmware update include a brief description on their download page.

I don't trust emails anymore. I once emailed the 3G Store with tech question and received no reply. Little did I know that Alex had responded to my email 23 hours earlier. Go figure.

By the way i do agree they should have a brief description of the updates on their download page. It would be nice. Smile

I certainly do not think there is any deception or anything close to that on Cradle Points part. May be just an oversight. Form me they are one of the better companies out there in supporting their resellers and customers alike.

Give Cradle Point a call with your concerns. Talking to a person rather than a keyboard has always gotten me results of some sorts, good and bad lol.

People can get a tendency to ignore, put off (and forget) emails, but talking to a live person you have a captured audience. Smile

CradlePoint, Inc.
Boise, ID 83702
P: +1.208.424.5054

Bigdave · EVDO Addict Joined: 08 Nov 2006 Posts: 1069

I guess I'm just a little naive. When there's an update of any kind for any of my equipment (firmware or software) typically I don't rush to download and install it just for the sake of doing so.

Specifically as for my router, if my EVDO device is working correctly and my speeds are rolling along as they should be, and my various desktops and laptops are able to connect and surf the net as designed (thus my router is doing as it should . . . routing) why upgrade?

I guess I just normally go by the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

That being said, I do understand your concerns Joe. Doesn't seem like it would be asking too much for any manufacturer to provide a change log up front so the individual users can make an informed decision as to whether the update/upgrade applies to them or not.

But then again as Americans we're required to think lawsuit each and every time we feel the slightest bit wronged . . . . . . . huh . . . . . Rolling Eyes

Oh, and Tony . . . . . . as for not trusting emails? If I remember correctly the specific email situation you referred to had to do with your spam catcher/junk folder intercepting 3GStore's response to you didn't it? That's a good thing IMO.

Instead of not trusting email I'd think to look in the junk mail folder every time I think I've missed something. That's a lesson I learned the hard way a while back myself Embarassed

but I sure love having a "paper" trail for every conversation I have . . . . . which is why I rely on email almost 100% now. Lesson learned!!

jackrodgers · EVDO Addict Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 1131

"I do know that in many states, perhaps at the federal level, and probably in many countries, there are laws that address companies that knowing put out products containing defects."

Almost every piece of software, new hardware and human babies have some defect.

It would be nice however to receive a text file listening known problems and which are being worked on.

Your baby has a bad temper, screams a lot, throws tantrums, bites...

firedude · EVDO Junkie Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 435

Dave, Joe I agree with you both in your views. I've just gotten further in many situations with a simple phone call surprisingly.

Dave that email from Alex was never found. It was not caught by any spam filters or folders that I could detect anywhere. It made a wrong turn in cyber space or the email goblins got it. Smile

I've gotten all my emails thus far from 3G, except that one lol!

I agree with Dave on the paper trail, but many times I have taken it beyond that to the phone thing ALSO with documentation. It has saved me many times.

I'm kinda like Dave to a point though and also follow the old adage of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", because if I do it surely will be broke LOL! Besides I'll wait until3 G tests the update first to see if it works OK or not LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bigdave · EVDO Addict Joined: 08 Nov 2006 Posts: 1069

My bad firedude. I was thinking I remembered you saying you'd found it in the junk folder.

I do agree about phone calls though. Many times you can get better results that way . . . . it can just be so freaking time consuming. I've listened to enough really bad elevator/on hold music and ads in my lifetime than any one person should be required to. Evil or Very Mad

firedude · EVDO Junkie Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 435

manganos · Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject:

Yeah instead of just calling and talking to them you post this on a public forum? I have probably spent 3 horus talking and emailing files back and forth with engineers from cradlepoint. They are the most helpful and honest company I have dealt with in a long time if not ever. I'm sure they won't have a problem telling you what the upgrades do because when I was on the phone with them Friday they told me what the latest upgrade was and why they did it. It wouldn't surprise me to see another update really soon so I'd hold off on updating if you don't have any problems as of now.

JoeCHecht · EVDO Junkie Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 342

JoeCHecht · EVDO Junkie Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 342

JoeCHecht · EVDO Junkie Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 342

jackrodgers · EVDO Addict Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 1131

You are correct in stating that Cradlepoint, and all others, should provide a detailed list of what is occurring during a firmware upgrade and what was broke and fixed and what is now broke..

This will probably require the hiring of an additional person and result in an increase in the price of the units considering the present structure of immediate response and add ons and updates. Hard for an active engineering staff to keep up with these changes. It might require an extreme change in management to force the engineers to document what they do...and so on. But it is doable.

How important is this?

Well, for a few people it seems very important but seeing how few people are complaining it may be isolated and due to a defective unit or something in the user's operating system (hardare, software, user) that is causing the problem.

I read the faq on their web site and it answered quite clearly the problems that have been raised about not working after updating the firmware. Yet it would seem that users did not read that page. The user failure to shut down the entire system and press one button on the Cradlepoint created and continued the problem.

This is what Read Me files on a Mac were created for over the past 20+ years. Of course many users do not read them and suffer the consequences.

Most install software on the Mac now includes a TOS and what you are requesting, a fix list and a step by step installation list.

mhtyler · EVDO Heavy User Joined: 01 Jul 2007 Posts: 133

I appreciate the frustration, but surely when we bought Cradlepoint products as I have, we understood that we weren't buying from General Electric. This is a very small outfit that likely operates much as a skunkworks, and therefore discussions about bringing in the lawfirm of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe to litigate is not useful.

It is 3g that has already begun to intercede here and suggests we hold off on upgrades until they do their own testing.

Since 3g has a close relationship with Cradlepoint, I suggest the best course is to wait for their "all clear" on the current upgrade, and ask them as a group to encourage Cradlepoint to document their firmware changes in a more proper manner.

I would only add, that you don't have to go to a small company to have difficulty with upgrades, as many of you struggling with Vista should appreciate.

mark
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Michael · Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:46 am Post subject:

FYI...

We have been encouraging CradlePoint to include release notes with each and every upgrade. It makes it easier for everyone, including our tech support department to know exactly what changes are included with each and every update. The CradlePoint Engineers have been great to work with and they have given our techs much more info then is publicly available (thanks), BUT it is best to release update notes to the public with each and every update.

Another reason why this is so important, unlike other router companies, CradlePoint actually releases firmware upgrades on a fairly regular basis (every 30 - 45 days), so it is even more of an issue.
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JoeCHecht · EVDO Junkie Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 342